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Commentary & Dissent
but not Dysentery

Bible emails Part One

Bible emails Part Two

That's where faith comes into play. But since there is no such thing, I guess all the times I've seen people healed isn't real. I guess the time I saw a boy crushed by two tons of twisted car reckage laying in a puddle of mud for 20 minutes with no pulse, but somehow be pulled out from under it all alive was just an elaborate ploy. (and in the middle of Jalisco, Mexico, of all places!!!) I guess the xrays and CaT scans of my spinal chord showing so much damage that I should have died, must have been a mistake. Maybe a doctor spilled a jelly donut or glass of milk or something while reading the proofs. The times I've seen people come into church literally stinking of alcohol and then within the same hour, after receiving Jesus as their Savior by faith, not even being hung over or sick or under the influence, or stinking...........were all staged by the pastor.

I know I can't change your mind about things. But I don't want to be responsible for not trying.......I want to see people saved not for a 'notch' on my belt, but because I want to see the joy and the change in the lives of those who receive of God.
tim

The power of the mind is incalculable. Recent studies reveal again that depressed people have a 40% higher incidence of cancer.

Throughout the world, throughout history, people have used their minds to conquer unbelievable odds. Psychic surgery, Voudun healings, Bhakti Yoga, Balinese Gamelan, Penitente mutilation, or a million other techniques allow people to transcend the apparent restrictions of matter. Faith healing is no different. If the belief is profound enough, magic happens.

The most harshly rationalist of agnostics have the worst row to hoe. A person's capacity to surrender to fantasy and illogic is perhaps an indicator of how well they will cope with life's difficulties. The mysticist, or the religious person, when faced with the infinite, have their gods and rituals to help them make the quantum leap into their higher minds.

The un-mystical Nietzschean, with no moon to howl to, is alone with disaster, and logic.

Thanks! It's great to hear your support, and the wonderful bit of our language.
Just for a refresher, here's how the Oxford English Dictionary defines allegory: "Narrative description of a subject under guise of another suggestively similar; emblem." An allegory is another word for metaphor, or parable.

Your point about evolution is also one that needs to be tattooed on the forehead of every fundamentalist. Thanks again!

Thanks!
Mark Smith
Chicago

Thank you too! Not everyone is so open minded. Read on.

I just visited my sister in Albany Texas. She is a youth minister in a small town. I attended a christmas eve sermon at her church [first time since I was ten]. We had christmas eve dinner with a minister and some church members, the minister had a huge rebel flag hanging in his bedroom, one of the members made a comment "the only way to fix this country is to kill the atheist and democrats", [on the eve of their lords birth] this woman had to be 80 years old. I restrained myself from making comments, thinking of myself as an observer, there to study some backwards cult. It was fascinating to watch, and frightening. For every liberal thinking large city there are one thousand backward thinking little towns, and together they are a powerful force. The internet is getting to these little towns and hopefully, now, sites like yours will at least get to these isolated spots of the world. We must think of the children! They need information they are denied in these rural areas. Keep up the good work you do.

Thanks for spreading the word.

darby griffiths..............

Thank you! Yes, we must be ever vigilant. Fundamentalist social engineers will be dangerous as long as people let them.

It's about time someone told it like it is. I couldn't wait to send this link to some of my fanatical Christian friends. I hope they enjoyed it. I know I did! Keep up the good work.

Thanks, I'm always glad to know people are being exposed to good information.

As a graduating student at the Canadian Bible college in Regina, I want to commend you on the depth and amount of research you have undertaken in creating this site. You are extremely accurate in your information and personal opinions. I would like to draw attention to your elementary philosophic conclusions that you have come up with. It can be agreed that Christianity (a religious system based on the teachings and person of rabbi Yeshua, later iousis christos, later jesus christ) has sometimes failed to focus on the very principles that Jesus preached and I believe you have been able to recognize them. Love God. (OT) Love each other. (NT) I hope that in your scholarship, you will be able to focus your energy towards promoting these principles on the web, rather than promoting antithetical principles. (hate, anger, frustration) Beginning with the Hebrews, Egyptians, Socrates, Jesus, His disciples, the Popes, the theologians, Martin Luther, the Enlightenment philosophers, the Founding fathers, Neitche, Hegel, Sartre, and now you, we as a community of humanity seek to biuld upon the work of others in finding a solution to the world's ills. I believe the starting point is Jesus and his philosophies. "Jesus taught us how to do it, Ghandi proved it could work..." I challenge you: What have you come up with that might enable you to sleep better at night knowing that anyone who might meet you would respond in kind, rather than in malice? This web site is obviously nothing to be admired or to be proud of. Better luck next time. Keep searching. Keep thinking. Then LOVE!

No problem! But what do Jesus and Gandhi have to do with Reverend Fred Phelps, or this guy?

The purpose of this web site is to show the futility of dogma - and in no belittles the value of spirituality, or a feeling of reverence.

If Christians were content to just love and follow the precepts of their religion's founder, all would be well. Instead, they act on the misconceptions of later interpreters, giving us Calvinistic social engineering, the Nazis, and the Christian Coalition.

I very much admired your comments,

'Satan' is a Christian invention. Bible belt teenagers becoming 'Satanists' and going on killing sprees are the obvious products of a fundamentalist environment; borne of parents who see evil everywhere, from Care Bears to rock and roll, these kids rebel in the easiest way: becoming what their parents most fear. They do it by claiming belief in a "religion" that owes its very existence to Christianity. (And yes, Anton Lavey).

I wrote about this on the discussion list belief-l@brownvm.edu about 10 years ago. I was smartly vilified for suggesting that Satan was a "Christian deity" since Christians, of course, have only one "deity." In response, I said I understood that the Christian dogma of monotheism is central to their belief system as they themselves perceive it, but that they should know that all the angels, demons, saints, "Persons of the Holy Trinity," etc. that figure into their mythology look like an awful lot like a good old-fashioned pantheon to outsiders. I clarified the idea that Satanism is a purely "Christian religion" by saying one might think of it as "a tapeworm in the belly of Christianity." You can quote me on that!

Much the same is true of Wicca. The devout go to staggering lengths to "prove" that their religion predates Christianity, so much that they appear to have internalized an assumption that Christianity is a kind of yardstick by which all "beliefs" are to be measured: those that are "longer" are more worthy -- those less, somehow invalidated by their deficiency.

This is but one of many variations of a theme I find noteworthy in the way we Americans approach problem of religion: the axiom that what a person needs, if they are dissatisfied with their religion, is a better religion. Many who grew up in Christian-dominated social groups, yet are disillusioned with Christianity, turn to eastern religions or some kind of "spirituality" that is supposed to be superior. An unspoken assumption remains, that religion per se must be a given. By starting from a questioning (and probably a rejection) of that assumption, I feel less inclined to define myself or my "beliefs," such as they are, with reference to Christianity -- or any other system of religious belief -- in the first place.

Anyway -- nice web site! I'm in the midst of improving it now that I have FrontPage and a scanner, but you might be interested in my rudimentary "Cult of Ottis" home page at http://www.rotd.com/james/ottis.html. The story of how that whole thing evolved is a long one, but suffice to say I still have a voodoo-style shrine in one of those old-fashioned spice cabinets, with a bloody straight razor, and antique glass hypodermic syringe, and a dozen or so similarly picturesque artifacts surrounding a portrait of the Mighty Ottis. Baby, it's a gas!!! :)

The index.html file at my ROTD site is a little out-of-date -- I have since quit the radicals and re-joined the establishment. But I couldn't get off so easily -- when I left the staff they promptly elected me to their board. The current version (softened a little for polite viewing) is at http://www.igc.org/citizenalert/people/james.

See ya!

James Quinn Las Vegas, Nevada

James - your comment about the "internalized yardstick" is brilliant. Because of the infiltration of Christianity throughout our culture, many people unconsciously judge every other belief system through a Christian filter, i.e., "a synagogue is just a church without the cross," or "religion is only for the purpose of avoiding hell."

Perhaps 'alternative religions' could be compared to methadone, or nicotine patches - a way for people to wean themselves from the corrosive bleakness of the Christian mythos. Remember though, that to people never indoctrinated into the Jesus cult, Christianity is merely a pushy, colorless anomaly. People who need to be are spiritual in their own dialects, without succumbing to the squalor of cinder block Baptists.

I have spent many hours touring around your site. I've been back on several occasions. I consider it to be a terrific accomplishment. Your site (which I stumbled upon by thinking "tertullian" but typing "tarsus") is the first significantly positive thing that I have seen on the internet -- outside its sprawl of mass commercialism. Insightful, thought-provoking, wide-ranging, progressive . . . Many wonderful adjectives have been used by me when describing your site to others.

I have read some of the vitriol spewed at you, particularly in response to your amazing collection of information and analysis regarding the judeo-christian-islamic history and traditions. (I am heartened to see much support as well.) When one person accused the "liberal jews" like you of destroying society, I was most impressed to see you respond by affirming that you were not jewish and then following that up by commenting that you did not consider it an insult to be called jewish.

Thanks - support is wonderful, especially insightful support.....

Your page at http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm is wonderfull (and the other pages)

Hope it stays up for a very long time.

Thankyou

Cheers

You made my day! Thanks!

I'm not writing this to argue or to prove a point. I was born and raised in the Church of Christ, but I always passed my doubts off as simply things that couldn't be explained. About a year ago, I read "The Bible Code".. It caused me to become more intense in my faith, because it seemed to be a concrete proof in many ways that the writings of the Bible (though by some interpretations appear contradicting) are in fact "God breathed" and valid. I was curious as to what you might have to say about it.
Sincerely, Shawn Young
Gematria, a science of numbers invented by Jewish Kabbalists, uses the numerical value of each letter in the Hebrew alphabet to calculate complex numerical patterns in scripture. Amazing things have been found in this way, and perhaps this proves that it is "God Breathed."

With the right perspective, everything can be seen as infused with Divinity - and that makes the world a much more wonderful place. Some people resonate with numbers, and have found Biblical patterns. More power to them! With the advent of fractal mathematics, we can now see patterns or a 'divine pattern' in every atom of our world - and that may prove a 'divine' plan, but it certainly doesn't prove Paulist-Calvinistic dogma.

Thanks! Yes, the torture pages are AWFUL, I was depressed for weeks after doing them, and rarely go back to edit. It IS necessary though, for people to know the truth. Once seeing this, how can a fundamentalist continue to adhere to a cult that has such atrocities to its credit?

kent

Yes, people in fact seem eager to surrender their ability to think and question, and trade it for corporate, cafeteria-style brainwashing.

I won't take time to go through all of your false claims about contradictions just one. Let's take the one on does God change his mind? You seem to misunderstand about God. The Bible never teaches that God can't change his mind! If you study the whole bible you can see that he deals with man in different ways, for example in Deuteronomy he burns two priests alive for offering strange fire, but we know that God doesn't deal with man that same way today don't we? But why did he do this, because this is under the law of Moses or the Ten Commandments. You see the ten commandments were written to the Jews only, today we are under the Christian age which has different laws. You don't want to put yourself in the position that the whole Bible pertains directly to us. For the reason I just described. The Bible in the Old Testament is preparing man for the coming of Christ, through examples, and learning what God expects and does not expect from us. So we know that God can change his mind, but For example as you qouted in Malachi 3:6 God says I change not. This is to say that God doesn't change who he is, his divine personality, or his nature.

There are explanations for all your so-called contradictions, no matter what you believe. I am sure you are convinced that there is no God, but I am equally as sure that athiesm is also a religion because you have to believe in something that you cannot possibly know. All atheism is, is an escape from moral responsibility and freedom do what you want without having to feel the guilt of your conscience. Which you have to override.

Thank you

A.M. Horn

Your letter demonstrates exactly what an earlier writer mentioned about an "internalized yardstick." It's like you're trapped in an echo chamber, or like you are trying to find an unlighted spot in a dark cave, using a flashlight.

The purpose of listing contradictions (a purloined list that's been around for years) is to show the futility of dogma, not to engage in legalistic quibbling over minutiae. It shows that rabid and literal interpretation is pointless in a document as old and recycled as the Bible.

Your a priori assumption that I am an atheist because I am not a Christian is really telling. As if the Christian notion of God should be everyone's. Can you really believe that an energy as infinite as the universe can be contained or even hinted at in a book of human words? Christians are the "atheists," investing their souls in a "God" fabricated from the minds of men. What I feel about what you would call "God" cannot be put into words, nor would I attempt such an insulting exercise.

As far as morals go, religion or "God" are not the sources of morality. The immorality of some who claim to be righteous and holy, and the goodness of many without religion, demonstrates this. Religion and morality are two separate concepts that sometimes overlap, but that are really independent of each other.

Thanks for your letter,
RandL

From time to time I read some letters written by a Jewish accountant that put things in perspective for me. The letters go on and on about how people should act and how the world would be a better place if people would just behave and get in touch with their creator. I bet a smart guy like you has even read some of these letters because they are always being left in hotel rooms. Anyway,there is a paragraph in one of his letters to his friends in Rome. It goes like this: "They knew all about him [God], but they wouldn't admit it or worship him or even thank him for their daily care. And after a while they began to think up silly ideas of what God was like and what he wanted them to do. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming themselves to be wise, they became utter fools instead."

Even though this guy died along time ago, I am amazed that he had such insight into the human soul and mind. Umm, I wonder if one of those "utter fools" could be you? Anyway, I really enjoyed your groovy website and will keep it in my favorite places.

Peace and Love,
Andrew Smith

That accountant (Paul of Tarsus)also sounds like he was talking about a lot of christians, too, the way they go around pushing their misinterpretations on everybody, hacking people to death, putting their deeply held beliefs on telephone poles and where lonely traveling salesmen will get them dirty....
His dictum that: "If you believe other than what I say, you are of the Devil," is a formula used by every cult-dictator from Calvin to Hale-Bopp. It works on people who are without perspective.

Jessica Berg

Yes, Jessica, there are Christians who genuinely want to help the world, and actually do. I defend the right of anyone to believe whatever they want as long as it helps their life and doesn't hurt anyone else.

But, by denigrating the beliefs of others, (some) Christians open all Christians to attack, so Christians shouldn't be surprised when they get static from people. Unfortunatly for the peaceful ones, the Fundmentalist social-engineers give everyone a bad name.

First off, No archaelogical discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. The bible was written over a period of 1500 years by 40 different men on 3 different continents, with no contradictions(God's character never changes, and his plan for salvation remains the same). If you get Three (3) scientists today writing about the theory of evolution, you will have 3 very different conclusions. Read the 2nd sentence above again, and you will see the power of the living God. Atheists/evolutionists/matereialist have been trying to deny the bible for 2,000 years. It's awful funny that those who don't believe in the bible are always trying to undermine it; Why are they not doing the same with the sacred books of othere religions? the answer is that Satan, the original liar, is sympathtic with books that lie. His real enmity is directed against the book of truth because it contains the dynamite for his defeat. Just like God's ten commandments are straight and narrow, so was Jesus's statement, that he is "the way, the truth, and the life". He left no room for error.(just like 2 + 2 =4). One problem is the desire on the part of many to apply one standard or test to secular literature and another to the Bible. Works, such as Caesar's history of the Gallic wars that are held reliable and factual in today's colleges are dated 1,000 years after the death of Caesar. 1400 years lapsed between Aristotle's poetry and the date of the earliest manuscripts, of which 5 exist. All New Testament books were written prior to 80 A.D., written during the generation of Christ himself. None will mistake and lose their way except those who follow their own judgement instead of the plainly revealed will of God. Risking one's money at Las Vegas is one Thing. Gambling one's soul on evolution is another matter entirely.

Wow! There's one of those people who give Christians a bad name... Articulate, forceful, and completely brainwashed. Your timeline of Biblical writings is woefully in error, I suggest you go to the library and do some research.

Your 'certainty' about your particular selection from the roulette wheel of life is startling. Your convictions about hell and damnation smack of the 15th century, rather than this one. Perhaps that's also where you got your misinformation about who wrote the Bible, and when.

(Donna's back for more, and seems to have trouble even counting her topics)

First off, remember that the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. Your quotes about Bible contradictions is totally unfounded. Obviously, the things of God are foolish to you because you do not understand it. I really do not want to go into depth on all the "contradictions" you stated, because until you accept God's gift of salvation, you will never understand, but Jesus said there will always be people like you. But I'll start with "Should we Steal". First off, Exodus 3 is before God gave the Israelites the law. So is Exodus 12. Read Exodus 12:36- "The Lord MADE the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people"... Remember, God is in control of EVERYTHING in this world, no matter if you believe or not. Just look back over your life. We have no business questioning God. Next, Luke 19:29-33-Remember everything God uses is for a purpose, as was the donkey. Read Zechariah 9:9, which was written 500 B.C. The prophecy had to be fulfilled. Please note: Everything in this world belongs to God. We brought nothing into this world, and we will take nothing out. Finally, People have been trying to undermine the Bible for 2,000 years. Has not happened, and will never happen. Next time, see if you can find one lie that Jesus told, if you do not believe the bible. Just try and find one lie!! In the book of 1 Corinthians, God stated "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent, I will frustrate" 1 Corinthians 1:19. One reason people try to undermine the bible, is cause it does not conform to the way they want to live, instead of the way God wants you to live. No matter what you say about God's word, it does not deny his sovereignty. Wanna Chat, e-mail me at
God Bless you

Thanks, but reading your letters was enough. Bless you, too!

After reading your page I don't know what to say.
But I will say this. It did make me think. People who don't like your page don't like the truth. There was a time when I was INTO the church and the whole Christianity thing. I gave it up. I often ask those hard core church people this simple question and I don't always get the same answer. Why can't all of these religions get along? Why do they spend so much time pointing fingers and bad mouthing each other. It's a crying shame. When I was in the church I saw so much throat cutting I couldn't believe it. It really turned me off.

When I was in high school, one of my teachers asked the class (1976) IS RELIGION MAN MADE? Some said yes and some said no. What do you think? I respect your comments.

J

Religion is a word; a human word, and the whole of religious experience is a human experience - so yes, it has to be human made.

So who made the humans? The whole idea of asking 'who' shows a bias towards humanity, which is inevitable. When we envision aliens, they look similar to us - the same way with gods. It is difficult and rare to really imagine something completely and utterly non-human, but that is what the universe is. We are a part of it, but it does not have to conform to what our ideas of what an entity should be.

Voltaire said: "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him," and he was so right.

Men did invent God, as they concieve "God." Augustine and Calvin invented original sin, Hell, sexual shame, the inquisition, and the beliefs that made Tammy Faye Bakker and the Moonies possible.

But ritual and beliefs are a comfort, even though human made, and ought to be honored, unless they involve hurting others.

Thanks for writing.

About your page, it is all wrong. Those verses were interpreted. You never looked them up. What are you doing? It is impossible for a pile of mud to transform into one of us. And if evolution is true, why aren't we evolving today?

-Jeramy

Maybe you're not evolving.....

I have just spent an hour browsing your site, and have bookmarked it, for it would literally take days to go through all the neat stuff therein.

A few comments about Christian idiots (from an ex-fundamentalist, no less!)

I know you are probably smart enough to know this, but I hope you don't think that there is even a shred of a chance that a fundamentalist reading your pages could in any way be changed. I am one of the few people I know that managed to free herself from that nonsense, and I think I have a unique perspective on the whole thing.

The problem is that Christianity, by definition, is an exclusionary belief system. "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father except by me." Logic, reasoning, and intelligent debate will NEVER win the mind of a fundamentalist. They firmly believe, with all their hearts, that the Bible is literal truth, that they are on God's side, and any threat or challenge to their beliefs is straight from the pits of Hell. (Know what the real definition of "satanic" is to a Christian? "Anyhting I don't understand.") They cannot allow for ANY other possible view, for to do so immediately brings the whole house of cards tumbling down.

Believe me, Christians are not alone in their attitudes. I am convinced that the vast majority of humanity is utterly incapable of critical thinking. A fave quote of mine (thought I've lost the source) is: "people will invariably embrace a comforting lie rather than face a distressing truth." The truth (as far as we have evidence) is that life is a joke, death is the end of consciousness, and nothing really matters except managing to make it through life with a minimum of discomfort. I've often said that the only difference between Man and other animals is that Man (unfortunately) has the capability of UNDERSTANDING the futility of his fate. Faced with this, most people cannot accept it -- the truth hurts. So they concoct any and all means to blind themselves to the obvious (thought upsetting) facts, and concoct a "comforting lie" to put their minds at ease. (And I should know! I would say that when I was a Christian idiot, it wasn't so much that I believed it all, but more that I was afraid NOT to believe it!)

Anyway, I am the first to defend any individual's right to believe what he or she wants to, no matter how self-delusional, and no matter how obviously facts, science, common sense, or experience invalidates those beliefs. If you want to believe (in the words of C.S. Lewis) that a fried egg is the Son of God, so be it. (Here's a great Thomas Jefferson quote: "It matters not to me whether my neighbor believes in 20 gods, or no god. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket.") When I do have a problem is when such people seek to impose (and enforce) the values and restrictions of their belief system on those who do not embrace it. In other words, it's not enough for Christians to behave like Christians -- they want to force everyone else to ACT like Christians. This is folly, as even some liberal Christians would admit (a writer in Sojourners magazine once said, "you can not expect, nor force, people to act like Christ if they do not accept his Lordship").

Almost every "argument" in favor of things like outlawing abortion, repressing homosexuality, continuing the futile "wars" against behavioral non-crimes like drug use and prostitution, etc., eventually leads back to the Bible as "justification." Even those who are not actively or overtly religious have been inundated with the Christian culture for so long that they cannot see any other way. Any dialogue on the above subjects with a Christian will sooner or later end up with them proclaiming, "well, that's what the Bible says, so..." and even those who can quote not a word of scripture will eventually find themselves in a corner, stubbornly procliaming, "well.....it's just WRONG. That's all. It just is. Everybody knows that!"

I always say that if you are at least 30 years old, and have not in the course of your life had at least one or two major (not necessarily religious) beliefs change 180 degrees, then you are probably hopelessly mired in tradition, ignorance, and stubborn adherence to undefendable beliefs, and will likely never change. Anyone with a truly open mind will frequently change their minds about certain things as they continue to study and keep their brain working and LISTEN to opposing viewpoints rather than dismissing them.

(Sigh) I suppose people like me ramble on and on out of frustration -- there is nothing we can do to counter the stupidity of mankind -- we can only do our best to avoid being affected and damaged by it at the hands of others. I sometimes think that I am not of this planet, given the fact that hardly anyone else I meet seems to "get it." Perhaps you and I were born on the same planet. (grin)

Thanks for reading. Feel free to excerpt any portion of this marathon (I certainly wouldn't expect that you would quote it ALL) on your website. And keep up the good work! Remember: "Non illigitamus carborundum" ("Don't let the bastards wear you down....")

Peace,

Joanna

YES YES YES YES YES!!!!
I quoted EVERY WORD!
Thanks for your great letter. A copy of it should be inserted into every Bible.
Thanks again,
RandL

Thank you so much for putting the Christian torture information on the internet.

With people like you and the internet, the Christians can no longer censor and whitewash their hideous history.

Sincerely yours,

Doug Newman

Nor can they feel as smug in adhering to a cult with such a record of visciousness and cruelty.
Thanks

Bible emails Part One

Bible emails Part Two

Letters about this site in general

Contradictions in the Bible

The Flat Earth

The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

Debunking Fundamentalism

The Nuclear Family Meltdown

Mother Earth on the Chopping Block

Look into the eyes of the advertising demon!

Pat Buchanan: Pit Bull in Wolf's clothing

External Link:
The Hidden Jesus