Mail Index

Hall of the Indignant
or the not so indignant

Commentary & Dissent
but not Dysentery


Bible emails Part One

Bible emails Part Three


from:
Joan Pontius
February 26, 1998
Subject: The Earth is Not Flat

The Church has never ever argued that the earth was flat. Galielo argued not that the earth was round (which everyone, including those in the earth had known since antiquity), but that the earth travelled around the sun. And this argument of his is ridiculous of course, it depends on the point of view. See Russell's "Inventing the Flat Earth".

"Fundamentalist's Flat Earth" is a figure of speech; its a reference to the blind faith rejection of demonstrated science, and the obvious in nature around us. (It's obvious at least, to people with open minds, that the world is a complete system, ancient, and one long mysterious miracle of creation. The Christian notion is that "nature is something we were put here to rise above.")

Furthermore, most of the torture done during witch trials was done to those accused of civil crimes, not of ecclesiastical ones, and they were comparable in their grisliness to those peformed by the pagans on the first Christians.

The inquisition was driven by fundamentalism - calling their victims 'civil criminals' was an attempt to exonerate themselves. It also shows how completely joined were church and government, in that priest's laws were the law of the land.
Torture has been with us always, since pre-history no doubt; and there is no further point in comparing horror stories.

Why do you have such an ax to grind with the church? If you are going to go through the trouble to put a site together, at least you could take the trouble to get your facts right.

Because history has a tendency to repeat itself. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (Santayana) And people like Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, and Pat Buchanan are only goading on the real loonies, the people like This, or This, or This, or This.

joan
ps-The religious haven't cornered the market on having faith in contradictions. You might want to open a physics book and find out whether light is a wave or a particle.

Yes, that's sure the truth. But do physicists or anthropologists throw bombs? or shoot doctors? or preach hate? Do they try to legislate morality? I don't think so.


from:
Scott Sage
July 14, 1998

I have a choice to believe what you think or believe the bible and there is only one and thats the king james version.The bible can see into the future and has told us what to expect with the nation of Israel and all has came true before our eyes.The bible says that in the last days knowledge shall be increased and it has happend and is happening at an incredible rate.The bible says that sin will wax worse and worse and oh how things have changed so rapidly within 40 years with open homosexuality and the list goes on and on.As the days of sodom so it shall be in the last days and how true it is today.The problem is that if you can explain away God then you can justify your sin as God says the carnal mind is not subject to the things of God nor can it be but is at enmity against God.You know what the odds of all this happening and the earth rotateing on its axel and the sun possitioned just perfect to sustain life on earth are?What about the complexity of the human body and the fact that you and I are alive is a miracle beyond belief.My friend you made fun of that person with that illeterate e-mail but I think hes got far more sense than a person who rejects the bible and believes we came from an ape.Fret not thy self because of the wicked man that brings evil devices to pass because in a little while he shall not be but the righteous shall live forever.All nations and those that forget God shall be cast into hell but the righteous shall endure forever!I am not saying this to hope you go to hell I hope this gets to you and you recieve Christ so I can see you in heaven one day.My e-mail is ssage@clubi.net if you want to respond back.If not God Bless and thanks for letting me share my opinion.


from:
Starcannon
July 14, 1998

While I agree with many of your ideas and found interesting some information that I had not previously been exposed to. I could not help but notice that you are very biased against christians and that is in itself dangerous and shows a lack of evolution on your part...consider this...all people on the planet right now in every walk of life in every evint...all these people all of us are doing the very best we can do right now...sometimes that means bad things happen sometimes that means good thigs happen but ultimately it just means shit happens....
In the Love of the Great Spirit Starcannon
Be your own disciple

Starcannon:
Thanks for your letter. This, or This, or This, or This, orThis should be enough to demonstrate the attitudes possible with the right mix of mythology and stupidity. These people are not doing the best they can. Jesus did not preach hate.


from:
Kristin
July 13, 1998

I LOVE YOUR PAGE about Bible contradictions, and I have one more that I didn't see on your page. In the Old Testament, God often states that he's a "jealous God", but in the New Testament, he says that being jealous is a sin.

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)

Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Kristin :
Thanks! Yes, I'm sure there are more contradictions than you can shake a stick at- So many different people claiming to have it all exactly right- how could they possibly NOT contradict each other? Your example is a good one, because jealousy is such a powerful trigger for people. The concept of a 'jealous God' is confusing; does it imply that there are OTHER gods of whom to be jealous? Of course they'll say it's just a figure of speech. (Yet another).
Thanks Again!


from:
M.Bolton
July 9, 1998

Dear RandL
thanks,yours is by far the best rage against the machine that I have yet encountered on my travels. As an Ex-ploited R.C. I had eaten my fill of fire and brimstone when at the age of 8 I made the earth shattering discovery that religions (I do not include 'Christianity' under this aegis,more later) do not worship God but are more concerned with the pursuits of Mammon. What little we see of US Evangelism on Brit TV leads me to the conclusion that most of the God-fearing Yank public must be gullible mindless sheep with more dollars than sense.

Most who have written in an anti attitude to your site profess to be Christians,yet most would not understand the true meaning of Christianity if they fell over it.

Firstly,Christianity is NOT a religion,it is a way of life whose single tenet is 'Do as you would be done by'

Secondly,true Christians whatever the name of their deity realise that all 'Gods' are one and the same,it is organized religio-zealots who give religions a bad name by their intolerance.

Thirdly,as all religions profess to be the 'True' path and all non-believers heretics,it naturally follows that ALL religious adherents are destined for somebody elses fiery pit........Mmmmmm.

Fourth,the bible was written by MEN for mens purposes,NOT Gods.

And five, Serve on your feet,not on your knees.

Best Wishes

Mick Bolton


from:
Joanna
July 1, 1998

I have just spent an hour browsing your site, and have bookmarked it, for it would literally take days to go through all the neat stuff therein.

A few comments about Christian idiots (from an ex-fundamentalist, no less!)

I know you are probably smart enough to know this, but I hope you don't think that there is even a shred of a chance that a fundamentalist reading your pages could in any way be changed. I am one of the few people I know that managed to free herself from that nonsense, and I think I have a unique perspective on the whole thing.

The problem is that Christianity, by definition, is an exclusionary belief system. "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father except by me." Logic, reasoning, and intelligent debate will NEVER win the mind of a fundamentalist. They firmly believe, with all their hearts, that the Bible is literal truth, that they are on God's side, and any threat or challenge to their beliefs is straight from the pits of Hell. (Know what the real definition of "satanic" is to a Christian? "Anyhting I don't understand.") They cannot allow for ANY other possible view, for to do so immediately brings the whole house of cards tumbling down.

Believe me, Christians are not alone in their attitudes. I am convinced that the vast majority of humanity is utterly incapable of critical thinking. A fave quote of mine (thought I've lost the source) is: "people will invariably embrace a comforting lie rather than face a distressing truth." The truth (as far as we have evidence) is that life is a joke, death is the end of consciousness, and nothing really matters except managing to make it through life with a minimum of discomfort. I've often said that the only difference between Man and other animals is that Man (unfortunately) has the capability of UNDERSTANDING the futility of his fate. Faced with this, most people cannot accept it -- the truth hurts. So they concoct any and all means to blind themselves to the obvious (thought upsetting) facts, and concoct a "comforting lie" to put their minds at ease. (And I should know! I would say that when I was a Christian idiot, it wasn't so much that I believed it all, but more that I was afraid NOT to believe it!)

Anyway, I am the first to defend any individual's right to believe what he or she wants to, no matter how self-delusional, and no matter how obviously facts, science, common sense, or experience invalidates those beliefs. If you want to believe (in the words of C.S. Lewis) that a fried egg is the Son of God, so be it. (Here's a great Thomas Jefferson quote: "It matters not to me whether my neighbor believes in 20 gods, or no god. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket.") When I do have a problem is when such people seek to impose (and enforce) the values and restrictions of their belief system on those who do not embrace it. In other words, it's not enough for Christians to behave like Christians -- they want to force everyone else to ACT like Christians. This is folly, as even some liberal Christians would admit (a writer in Sojourners magazine once said, "you can not expect, nor force, people to act like Christ if they do not accept his Lordship").

Almost every "argument" in favor of things like outlawing abortion, repressing homosexuality, continuing the futile "wars" against behavioral non-crimes like drug use and prostitution, etc., eventually leads back to the Bible as "justification." Even those who are not actively or overtly religious have been inundated with the Christian culture for so long that they cannot see any other way. Any dialogue on the above subjects with a Christian will sooner or later end up with them proclaiming, "well, that's what the Bible says, so..." and even those who can quote not a word of scripture will eventually find themselves in a corner, stubbornly procliaming, "well.....it's just WRONG. That's all. It just is. Everybody knows that!"

I always say that if you are at least 30 years old, and have not in the course of your life had at least one or two major (not necessarily religious) beliefs change 180 degrees, then you are probably hopelessly mired in tradition, ignorance, and stubborn adherence to undefendable beliefs, and will likely never change. Anyone with a truly open mind will frequently change their minds about certain things as they continue to study and keep their brain working and LISTEN to opposing viewpoints rather than dismissing them.

I suppose people like me ramble on and on out of frustration -- there is nothing we can do to counter the stupidity of mankind -- we can only do our best to avoid being affected and damaged by it at the hands of others. I sometimes think that I am not of this planet, given the fact that hardly anyone else I meet seems to "get it." Perhaps you and I were born on the same planet.

Thanks for reading. Feel free to excerpt any portion of this marathon (I certainly wouldn't expect that you would quote it ALL) on your website. And keep up the good work! Remember: "Non illigitamus carborundum" ("Don't let the bastards wear you down....")

Peace,
Joanna
PS
I had to point out a couple of things concerning your otherwise excellent tratise on how the Bible came into its present form.
You name Matthew as the earliest gospel, and say the others were written "as long as 150 years after." Even open-minded Bible scholars with no ax to grind pretty much agree on Mark as the earliest Gospel, with material therein finding its way into Matthew (often edited or amended). The three synoptic gospels have a fairly early dating, while the gospel of John probably dates around 150-200 A.D. However, if you know of more recent research that supports your statement, please point me to it!
While on the subject, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about the rejection of the "gospel of Thomas." The "playlist" of the Bible was compiled by the Council not for reasons of perceived inspiration or divine origin, but on the basis of maintaining POWER over their followers. Any scripture that placed the means of salvation or enlightenment into the hands of the individual believer was a dangerous thing indeed. Politics, not religion, was the deciding factor in many of the decisions made.
Been on your site for over two hours now -- rarely has any place on the Web held my interest for so long!! Good work!!
Peace, Joanna


from:
Jessica
June 30, 1998

I must say that I am impressed by the time you took to make this page and entire site, and I also must say that I'm sure you've heard this countless times, but I somehow feel the need to express my opinion. I myself am not fond of "christians" such as the christian coalition who set out to attack non-christian groups, or christians that have an attitude about their beliefs (thinking that they are superior to others, perfect, ect.). I don't believe that is displaying a christian attitude. I myself am a christian, and am greatly disappointed at seeing other people act the way some of them have. I don't believe in being superior over any non-believers, I see that as being a huge turn-off to a relationship with Christ. Christians that try to persuade non-believers into christianity by force or by trying to "save the world" with acts like banning certain things (Disney World for having a Gay day, Marilyn Manson for obvious reasons, etc.) and trying to destroy them, is not portraying a very christian attitude, either.

If they want to portray a christian attitude, they should be out praying for these people, and accepting them for who they choose to be. Jesus was a loving person, he went through hell (literally!) to make our sins forgiven. It only works if we choose to believe and accept that, we don't have to earn a bunch of brownie points to make it into heaven. I'm certainly not saying that I'm better than anyone...I've done plenty more than my fair share of sinning, believe me. I'm merely saying that I am slightly offended by some of the comments. Many christians do agree, I'm sure, but it's also easy to see the ones who are out to play games. I would like to suggest that you make mention of the fact that there are people like me, people who are trying to do the best they can, just like you, just like anybody, and that not all christians are like that, which was the message I felt after reading this page. I'm sorry if I misread or misunderstood. Thankyou for freely expressing your opinion, though, and for making such a unique site.
Jessica Berg


from:
Jim
June 29, 1998

I came upon your site while looking up information on Thomas Paine. I first stumbled onto your torture page, and found a link to the Bible Contradictions page. Being borderline agnostic/athiest (and being easily distracted, especially while doing homework), I decided to take a look. My comment concerns the picture of the fundamentalists protesting against homosexuality. I found it very appropriate that they were standing behind barriers marked "Bureau of Sanitation." It had me rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off. That is one great picture.

Jim Franz


from:
Matthew
June 19, 1998

Whew! I just spent the past two hours browsing your rather expansive site, finally getting caught in the Xtianity dialogue you created. You raised some insightful points, and presented plenty of thought-provoking material. I only hope that most of the surfers here actually take the bait and Think About It.

Many of the issues you raise (notably comparing the teachings of the original Jesus with the permutations of various churches and theologians) have been debated for centuries. Certainly, the origins of Christianity were not dominated by the Paulist thinkers. The story seems to go like this: Rome was degenerating in the eyes of its people, and they yearned for a more structured, strict, assured way of being. Men were bound to continue in the professions of their fathers, and free thinking was associated with dangerousness, lawlessness, and the debauchery of the educated patricians. Catholic faith fit snugly into the hole in the hears of so many imperial citizens.

But the rigid thinkers didn't have a monopoly on Christianity (at first): remember the Gnostics. For some very interesting browsing, check this out: Gnosis.

So sad that those who yearn for enlightenment are so often smothered by the masses who crave blindness: a world where one need only believe, and never question. I would think that exploring God's creation, questioning it, and revelling in it would be a powerful way to honor God. But it is the consensus among Christian faiths that one must have blind faith in the capricious whims of a jealous, vengeful god who will smite you for your divergence because he loves you so much. Does somebody need a shrink here?

The quest for understanding: this is the foundation of religion. I hope that more people will find the strength to realise this, and stop letting other people's instructions and imperatives come between them and wakefulness. I would rather be blinded by the magnificence of Creation than keep my eyes shut tight.

You provided me so much food for thought today, and I have more of your work yet to browse. May these words lead you to inspiration as yours have lead me. May the breath of Creation fill you.

Good Journey,
Matthew


from:
Jefferson P. Swycaffer
June 18, 1998 Informative and genteel: the best kind of atheist page!

One of the nicer quotes from the Bible is that "The soft answer turns away wrath." It's ironic and amusing when an atheist speaks softly, and the Biblical-minded persons respond enraged.

Lately, someone tried to argue that atheism involves "faith," just as religion does. I suppose that may be true for some people, but I don't think it is necessary. I don't believe in a "Basic God" for much the same reason I don't believe in four-sided triangles: there are inherent contradictions. I'm willing to admit the possibility of powerful beings -- sort of like Star Trek's Q -- but the idea of a "Basic God" -- i.e., one possessing omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence -- is meaningless. (Of course, the God of Exodus might have been merely a powerful meddling entity. Shrug. At least it isn't a nonsensical conjecture...)

I was very young when I was first beaten up on a school playground for not testifying my belief in God. Since that day, decades ago, I have not had much cause to improve my opinion on the tactics used by the faithful to discourage dissent. Your page is a testimony to the fact that, by and large, we're *better* than they are. At least we can recognize the fallacy of the undistributed middle, a simple little error that occurs in nearly every modern fundamentalist teaching.

(Recently, some religio threatened the city of Orlando, Florida, with hurricanes, and even a meteor, for harboring gays. By his logic, God hates every town and region where natural disasters strike...and favors those areas where they don't. After all, if AIDS is God's plague against homosexual men, then God must favor lesbians above all other persons... Sigh... Here's to logic and here's to set-theory!)

Best wishes,
Sincerely,
Jefferson P. Swycaffer


from:
Linlee Hermann
June 4, 1998

Your page on bible contradictions was excellent. I enjoyed it very much. There was only one thing I did not like about it. You say that people of every every religion claim that they are the ones to go to heaven. But you seem to leave out a religion here.

Wicca and Paganism do not believe that there even is a heaven and believe that every path is the right path, as long as it suits the person following it and leads them to spiritual enlightment. Also, the major religion of India, Hinduism, holds religion in the same regards as Wicca and Paganism. Whatever works best for you is fine. They, too, believe in reincarnation, but only to a certain point.

Otherwise... the whole collection is absolutley marvelous. I would love to take it to the Baptist Church I used (May I please point out the used and make a very large point of that?) to go to, but they would probably hang me up on their cross and try to "save me" again. Just wanted to say, nice work on showing some of the many lies.

Astrophelia Addenda

Linlee:
Thanks! And thanks for clarifying that very important point. The fundamentalist argument is that religion is not a smorgasbord, where you pick and choose what you want. Hinduism has survived for 4,000 years because of its flexibility, and because of its recognition and honoring of human nature. All paths lead to God in Hinduism, and in the Wiccan and Pagan traditions. This is from the recognition that God is infinite, and truly at the end of every road. The passive Hindu stance also has bred very little Hindu-originated violence.
Thanks Again!
RandL


From: waggoners
Subject: Quit spreading lies
Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 3:52 PM
Your torture sites were very accurate. But oh what I could say about your site that talked about the founding fathers. While some of them were not Christians, a lot of them were. At the end of the Declaration of Independence, it made a reference to Divine providence. Who believes in that? Jews? Muslims? No. The group that believes in that mostly is CHRISTIAN. Why do you openly spread lies over the net? This nation was intended to be a Christian nation. We can see that because:
1.We swear on the Bible in court.
2.In the schools, the Bible was taught.
3.Prayers occurred in the schools, Christian prayers.
4.Presidents called on God and Christ to help America.
5.Presidents set up national days of prayer and repentance.
6.Christian leaders often consulted with the President.
7.From the quotes explaining the free-exercise clause of the Constitution.

And the list goes on. Keep in mind, all of this happened either during the 18th or 19th century, the time when America was being set up. What really ticks me off is ignorants like you ignoring the mountain of evidence. We were a Christian nation until the Supreme court in it's TYRANNICAL DICTATORSHIP, destroyed the Christian ties to this nation. The ACLU and all of the LIBERAL, ATHEISTIC, SATANIC, Democrats and their evil friends have schemed to destroy America. It has worked.
CRIME HAS RISEN.
TEENAGERS ARE KILLING EACHOTHER MORE THAN EVER.
THE OCCULT'S INFLUENCE EVERYWHERE IS HUGE.
BABY-KILLING IS LEGALIZED, AS LONG AS IT IS IN THE WOMB, BECAUSE IT IS AN ALIEN OR SOMETHING.
HOMOSEXUALITY IS OKAY.
TERRORISM HAS INCREASED.
PROFANITY IS BEING USED MORE THAN EVER, AT YOUNGER AGES.
GANGS HAVE INCREASED RAPIDLY.
TEENAGE PREGNANCIES HAVE SKYROCKETED.

ALL OF THIS STARTED HAPPENING AFTER THE EVIL SUPREME COURT TOOK AWAY RELIGOUS RIGHTS OF CHRISTIANS. AND IT IS GETTING WORSE.

Need I say more?

PLEASE DON'T! You need to get a life, and catch up on reality. Christians have all the rights they have ever had. They have as many rights as anyone else in this country has. Anyone can pray in school whenever they want to. It's when they start simpering up to people and trying to infect others with their pygmy religion that they wear out their welcome, and their rights become an issue. Christian 'holier than thou' posturing, and attacking of people not like themselves, is what makes them so annoying.

The social ills you name are a result of corporate conditioning and factioning of society. Read this.

Fundamentalist hysteria over abortion is so hypocritical, in light of all the blood on their hands. Occult just means hidden. Anything not Christian was forced underground, and called occult. Ignorance always breeds fear, and that explains why fundamentalists are so afraid of modern society. Homosexuality just is; for those who have no choice in the matter, it has to be OK, to go on living.

Fundamentalists are the ultimate 'Ugly Americans.' Elsewhere in the world, United States citizens have a reputation for being loud, insensitive, pushy, infantile, and myopic. The Fundies acheive this within our own borders, with the same selfish oblivion to the experience of others. Like the loudmouthed Texan boor in Mexico, the Fundie thinks that everyone speaks his language, and that they are just pretending not to. If he's just loud enough, and pushy enough, they will get the point. Believe it or not, different people and cultures can have a different experience of the world than you do.

Either help or get out of the way. Stop trying to use people's misfortunes to advance your own agenda, and trying to assuage your repressed doubts about your preposterous faith by converting others.

Live and let live!

Subject: Fundamentalism as you see it

Dear sir,

While I applaud your efforts to debunk the foolishness of what we are taught daily by our clergymen, I hasten to defend the teachings of the Torah, ( Bible to Christians.) While it is true that there are scores of passages which are difficult to undertstand within the Torah it is because over time we have A. lost those teachings as well as those who had a true handle on them, and B. had hundreds of years of conflicting and politically motivated changes (Christianity and Islam) which have always sought to denigrate or to make more convenient that which was unpalateable to anyone but the Jews.

Don't forget that the essence of Chistianity is the belittling of the Torah, the "upgrading" or revising of same into a new testament where, far from the demanding daily - life acts and learning required by Judaism, all you now need is faith. Thus it is unfair of you to find contradiction in the Bible between Judaism and Christianity, as The Torah From God is hardly the same as the Gospels of the human apostles.

I agree that there are conflicts, and yes I do agree that there is and always has been a political agenda attached to western religion even within the various sects themselves (3 or 4 levels of Judaism, 30 or 40 types of Christianity), but to dismiss the teachings completely is to throw out the baby with the bath water.

As you may have guessed I am Jewish; but while I don't follow all the commandments or practices, I do make an effort to try to understand where the benefits are to humanity.

I think your work is well intended for the most part, but I do think you would benefit from a couse in Judaism as taught by an orthodox Rabbi. Keep up you learning and your efforts The more people question the more relevance The Torah has.

Respectfully,

Dan Rusen

Dan:
Thanks for your great letter. People do such a good job of filling in the blanks; I don't claim to know everything. L'Chaim!
RandL


from:
Guy
Date: March 25, 1998
Randl,
Enjoyed your site immensely, and agree whole-heartedly with your views. I have always been stongly of the belief that religion is just garbage used by those with power to control (& tax) the masses by neatly tapping into their fears; which is a direct function of whatever science hasn't quite been able to fully explain. You have to hand it to them though, they've done a good job - Bach, Michelangelo, Erasamus to name a few - the world would be a poorer place without the artistic gems that they have extracted from their carefully manipulated and guilty sinners along the way.
To develop, if I may, this discussion through ... systematic demolition of religion has really only been going on since the 1940s. Sites like yours, the Hubble telescope and free availability of pornography speed it on its way, but we need to know the next step. People are confused. The church may take 100s of years until it finally works out it needs to drop the dogma while holding on to the moral agenda.
But as of 1998, we need to finally admit that we can no longer externalise responsibility but that we are as individuals through democratic common law finally approaching the stage where we have both responsibility and authority to act as we contributors to a social godliness.
When we crawled out of caves, we had naturalism (100s of gods - thunder & lightening rule OK?) and completely externalised responsibility; pagan (multi deity) externalised responsibility but our actions could influence events to a degree; then catholic (apistolic monotheistic) gave us great responsibility through guilt but no authority.
Actually, the Jewish tradition brought monotheism; it was the Christian amendments to Judaism that brought Apostolic notions. Jewish monotheism was seen as snobbishness to the pagans -
But the next steps. I think your site would be benefit from giving people the next steps - "where do we go from here?"
My view? -> I believe society yearns for moral one-ness. People who want to get married, want to get married cross culturally who want acceptance for themselves their children as parents and have some social kindness binding the society. We have all these lovely churches to house in beautiful surroundings the moral centre of a society. Trouble is the current inheritors of the moral / social torch - the fundamentalist church - present a mixed message. While saying with one hand "love thy neighbour" they are also saying "Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your Saviour?"
Are we at the point where we have enough faith in our own human spirit to really go it alone? To act and love without dogma?
Regards, G

Good questions; questions with no ready, simple answers. There are plenty of people ready to sell you an answer, though - that should be proof enough that the answer must come from within....


from:
Witta Wolf
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1998
After reading longer there are a few things I must say. The first is that a growing fad among non denominational Xtains is to deny that catholics are Xtains. Its the new thing now to say they are pagans wearing the Xtain name for propaganda. I think I have to say the hate mail section is definatly the best page. Comeing from a group of people whose own religion says it is not thier place to judge, they sure do a lot of it. And it is a good example of the weakness of thier own faith. The weaker ones faith, the harsher one will be to make sure its fragile web is not broken.
Ill give you one more example of how born-again think:
This is something my father said to me, before he knew I was pagan. He thought I was becoming more "devout" in Xtain ways. The reason, I was losing weight. At the time I was about 10-15 pounds over weight. When he realized I was losing weight he decided I was coming closer to jesus. His reasoning; the Xtain god made all his "real" children fit and healthy so they could thrive in such an evil and sin ridden place as earth. This of course is also the man who would not give out candy this year at Halloween for fear of contributing to a pagan holiday.
I find it amazing. Xtains audacity. They automatically believe that everyone knows their god is the real god, but that we just choose to ignore him. It never crosses their minds that some people don't believe in their god because they truly don't, not just because they don't want to.
Wolf

Wolf:
Thanks! Yes, it's like a person who has never been exposed to other languages, suddenly meeting a Japanese. The person with no experience cannot believe the Japanese doesn't understand, so just yells louder, thinking that the foreigner is "just pretending."


from:
Dave Bajor
Date: October 31, 1998 8:36 PM
Hey,
I'm not quite sure what to think about your website. I agree with your comments about fundamentalists. They just don't understand that their beliefs are something they are allowed to think about and decide for themselves. I am Catholic but fairly liberal. I go to mass every week but I didn't cringe all that much when I read through part of your site. Originally I was looking up info about the Scopes monkey trial and then I got into the site further.
I guess I just want you to realize, even though I think you do, that many Christians, even Catholics, can be religious to a point. That is they can invent their own version of their religion and follow that. I can go to church and decide what to believe, just like I can read your site and decide when you are making sense and when you are just reaching out for someone to bash. The people protesting homosexuality, for example, are mixed up because the Christianity that was taught to me puts love above all things.
Anger can be a gift but hate is definitely a disease. Anger can be productive but hate can only build walls to separate people. As an open minded person/group I hope you will understand that a religion can be a building block for understanding and living in the world, despite also being a way for some to ignore it.
Respectfully,
David L. Bajor
from:
Dennis Stokes
Date: May 1, 1998 8:36 PM
Dear Sir,
I stumbled across your website very late at night and kept myself up reading it. I read it because I have always believed in listening to another man's point of view even if you disagree. I admire the hardwork that must have gone into such a website. I do however disagree with you.
I clearly understand that you believe in Darwinism. If this theory if true then how did the monkey get here for us to ascend from. If by chance you are an advocate for the "Big Bang Theory", how were the particles that created the galaxy created. You might ask me,"How did your God that created everything come to existence." My answer for you, sir, is that I don't know. The answer to this very complicated problem is that everyone knows that something much larger and more powerful than themselves caused the creation. Some believe this powerful creator to be science and some believe it to have been the Words of God. Each person, though contradictory in belief, is similar in spirit.
I truly believe with all of my being that Jesus Christ was the man he said he was and has risen to sit by my Father's side. You seem to stand firmly on a different side. I do not believe because that's what I was told. I believe because I can feel it down in the bottom of my heart.

If no one had ever taught you Christianity, do you think you would have devised the whole thing on your own? The same way countless independant observers throughout history have postulated evolution and the heliocentric solar system - from observation, reason, and analysis?

You may find comfort in your belief, but I would rather die with the feeling of security I have than always questioning everything. Whether in science or religion, some things have to be taken on faith. You will never find one concrete answer for anything. Everything can be contradicted. Everything can be explained. So ask yourself one question: "Why am I criticizing and reviling a practice and belief that is founded and fueled by LOVE"

Prozac, lithium, and Christianity all seem to have the ability to stop the mind from questioning - and I don't object to people doing what they have to to get a good night's sleep. But personally, I am uncomfortable with faith in the preposterous as a balm against the mysteries of the infinite.

The Bible is not my sword. It is my history book, my instruction book, my owner's manual, my comfort, my guide, my textbook, and my map. But it is not what is on the pages that confirms my belief in God, it is what is on my heart. I encourage you to search your own heart,sir. Maybe the reason you can't understand the Bible is because you are looking at it with your head instead of your heart.

Read what George Santayana has to say about that.

With high regards, Andrew W. Stokes
Andrew: I don't agree with you, but I defend your right to say it.


from:
HSpairsr
Date: May 19, 1998
Because as true followers of GOD we ask that HIS will be done and not ours. GOD is supreme in all ways and i do not question anything HE says or does, because i have found by careful study and guidance of THE HOLY SPIRIT, that what we could say at first glance might be thougt to be contradiction is not.
I will give you one example: Thou shall not kill is a command of GOD. GOD instructed sometimes that HIS followers were to kill some people. It is very clear to me that i am not to kill anyone unless GOD by my being in HIS presence instructs me to do so. We are told in Scriptures that GOD was with the people of Israel.

God was with the people of Isreal (according to the Bible) until (according to the New Testament and Paulist Doctrine), HE changed HIS mind, and decided to embrace all comers. God, conveniently created in MAN's image, seems to change HIS mind when it's convenient for HIS followers.

If you do not believe this then i can see how you can doubt. It says in Scripture that GOD hates evil and HIS followers are to hate evil also. No one can proove anything concerning belief, therefore i takes faith and anyone can make any statements which come to mind. It says in Scripture that "without faith it is impossible to please GOD"


from:
Bradford Tiernan (Fundamentalist Christian)
Date: May 14, 1998
Your opinions of Christianity struck me as very hateful. While I admit that Christ's name has been and will continue to be used for evil purposes, that is not what Christ preached. You seem to have extreme hate for Christians, that has been and will continue to be the worldly view. That view put Christ on the cross, and will put many Christians in peril until the end of time.
You try to portray Christians as ignorant people, I would guess many are. However, I am currently a 2nd year law student, and have a number other graduate degrees, (not that degrees make you intelligent), but I know Judges, Law professors, CEO's of fortune 500 company's, and many more incredibly intelligent people who are devout fundamentalist Christians. If I were you I would try to become a little more informed before you spout such anger and hatred. You have every right to hate whoever you want, but try not to be so hypocritical, it takes away from your argument. Good luck on your endeavors, I must say your web page has given me food for thought, but also a sadness for your hatred of the one true God, Jesus Christ.
God Bless,
Bradford Tiernan (Fundamentalist Christian)

Hate is too strong an emotion to waste on Christians. Humored distaste more accurately describes what I feel. As for your CEO friends, they're probably the ones cutting down ancient redwood forests and pushing cigarettes on Burmese villagers. (Just because someone is a CEO doesn't mean that they are good, or smart.)


from:
Bryan
Date: March 18, 1998
A comment concerning catholicism. anything you have to say that is bad about it is perfectly justified in history and will be justified in the future, but your setting it up as Christianity and the foundation for scriptures and scriptural preservation is false, That comes as ill-studied; if you are looking for a straw man as a cop out, Catholicism is your man. If your looking for true bible-believing Christians throughout the ages dont bother with the catholics.
bryan

The delusion that "Bible-believing Christians" are the "true religion," as opposed to everyone else, is utterly ludicrous. Read This.


from:
Doug
Date: June 4, 1998
Dear Randl:
Thank you so much for putting the Christian torture information on the internet.
With people like you and the internet, the Christians can no longer censor and whitewash their hideous history.
Sincerely yours,
Doug Newman

Thanks! Unfortunately, they still do pose as being ever so perfect, while forgetting that they are putting their faith in total strangers, people who lived in the stone age compared to where we are now. And by pretending that there is no blood on their hands. Forgetting and obscuring history is a Christian specialty.


from: Henri K.
December 3, 1998
Greetings from the Netherlands,
First of all I like to congratulate you with your article about the Mithras-cult. I discovered some facts a few years ago in my study Classical Languages and Cultures of ancient Greece and Rome here in Holland and they match with alot of things you say at your page. Besides from that I'd like to write some remarks and questions down just for some further thinking about the stuff and I hope you like that :).
First some little comment about a remark you make about some lines in the epistle to the Hebrews and that they prove Paul being influenced by Mithraism. Personally I say again that I think that you are absolutely right about the influence, but it's better to take lines from another letter or book, because 1. it's not proven that Paul is the author of the letter to the Hebrews. Studies about language and style make it believable that he's not. And the letter misses the typical Paul-intro. Editors of the Bible made the title "Letter of Paul...." or "Paul's letter..." It doesn't appear in the Greek text 2. If it is one of his letters I would comprehend a reference to Mithraism in all of his letters , but not in a letter to Hebrews, there he should make a reference to Judaic backgrounds and he does.
Secondly some remarks about the page with contradictions: I'm not a Christian or believer myself and I do think that there are alot of contradictions in the Bible (I repeat I think you're right), but most of the quoted lines at your page don't have to be contradictions. (By the way, the lines about the repentence of God and he changing his mind surely are a contradiction.) I don't want to speak about them all, but for instance the line about showing good works (Matt.5 and 6): the context here is of absolute importance like it always is. I know you've said some words about that further on. But it doesn't prove a thing that some other solitary lines are made of importance by Christians. They should do what they think is right, I don't agree with that, but if I want to show something and proclaim it more or less logical than I can't take THEIR claims to prove I am right ( I hope you get what I mean).
And yes, there still are a lot of contradictions, for example in the book of Acts 3 times there is a passage about the vision of Saul/Paul, one time the story itself, the other two the story retold by Paul. The one time is told that he heard nothing, but saw something, the other time that he saw nothing but heard something. Now THAT's a contradiction. If the word would have been inspired and written by God, this contradiction wouldn't be there. But again I think you say some really useful stuff at your page. Maybe sometimes some nuances couldn't hurt. I hope you still like this e-mail. It was meant to stimulate, not to offend.
Greetings
A reader from the Netherlands


from: Emil K.
December 4, 1998
I absolutely agree with the views expressed in your web page. Buchanan is a loose cannon, and a threat to many liberties that we as a society at last have potential to attain. Unfortunately, I actually see him getting elected due to the recent turmoils and people's turn towards 'alternative' movements (anomie theory)
Good job
Emil K., Windsor, Canada

Let's hope NOT. For a good example of what happens when hate-drunk 'religious' zealots come into power, Click Here.


from: David Lopes
December 6, 1998
whats wrong with teaching creationism. Evolution is obviously a fraud.
What would be wrong with no abortions. Its murder. especially partial birth abortion.
You left wingers would object to it for a serial killer or a rabid dog but its ok for human babies.
School prayer? this IS a christian nation you dont come in and then want everything changed to suite your views, either accept the established way ( which included the ten commandments and prayer in school) or dont come here at all. No one here needs your presence.
And yes English is spoken here...get with the program or get out..what we have to have streetsigns in seventeen languages?
Buchanan is not antisemetic...he is a christian...his Savior is a Jew. He supports Isreal..he just doesn't want them telling us what to do.
You are the extremeist.
ever heard of the left wing notion of "political correctness" its a "pc" way of saying censurship.
Freedom of speach, just whatch what you say. and if you say Jesus watch out...they'll be out to get you
I appreciate your giving the place for opposing positions
peace
DL

Pure Poetry!


from: Hecate
I just want to say that I think that this sight is the bomb and everyone that has said something negative go and get a life..... being an atheist, wickan, pagan ... what ever I really am I don't see how anyone can put faith in a book of lies ... who knows if any of the words in the bible are really true. I mean, it was written by a man..... hundreds of years after it was originally spoken ... it could have been interpreted in anyway the "man" who wrote in into a spoken language wanted it to say. People today put their faith into anything that they see as a way out of the hardships of life, it is a way to think that there is someone out there is looking after them ... no matter what happens they think that it is because "God" made it happen, when they themselves had to have made it happen, one way or another...

Thank you kindly! Always nice to know others agree.

On Joy and Sorrow ...On Religion ... On Self Knowledge


Bible emails Part One

Bible emails Part Three

Letters about this site in general

Contradictions in the Bible

The Flat Earth

The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

Debunking Fundamentalism

The Nuclear Family Meltdown

Mother Earth on the Chopping Block

Look into the eyes of the advertising demon!

Pat Buchanan: Pit Bull in Wolf's clothing

External Link:
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